e149. Grazing, Growing, and Butchery with Jock Gibson
===
​
[00:00:00] Cal
On today's show. We talk about raising beef grass, fed beef in Northern Scotland.
So in an environment with a long winner. In addition to that, we talked about reducing chemicals, Pasture for Life certification, and Nuffield scholarships.
We'll get started with the fast five. First question. What's your name?
[00:00:28] Jock
My name's Jock Gibson.
[00:00:31] Cal
What's your farm's name?
[00:00:32] Jock
Farm name is Edenvale Farm.
[00:00:35] Cal
Where's your farm located?
[00:00:38] Jock
In a tiny village called Dallas. Which is in the north of Scotland, in the Highlands of Scotland.
[00:00:45] Cal
So so just clarify. It's not the Dallas that's six hours from me.
[00:00:49] Jock
No, it's the one that came before that.
[00:00:52] Cal
Oh Yeah, I'm sure it did What year did you start grazing animals
[00:00:59] Jock
I came back to the farm here in 2015.
[00:01:04] Cal
and what's what livestock do you graze on your farm?
[00:01:07] Jock
Mostly cattle, a mixture of Highland and Shorthorn genetics.
[00:01:13] Cal
Welcome to the grazing grass podcast. The podcast dedicated to sharing the stories of grass-based livestock producers, exploring regenerative practices that improve the land animals and our lives. I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each week we'll dive into the journeys, challenges, and successes of producers like you, learning from their experiences, and inspiring each other to grow, and graze better. Whether you're a seasoned grazier or just getting started. This is the place for you.
​
For 10 seconds about the farm, really don't have too much. It's just continuing what we're doing every day. And luckily the weather has been pretty mild, so that's been really nice for us. For 10 seconds about the podcast. If you can share this with a friend, I'd appreciate it. Uh, we are really close to hitting that 300,000 downloads for the lifetime of the podcast. So, if you can share it to one person, Yeah, it helps. Appreciate it.
And let's get back to a conversation with Jock.
[00:02:27] Cal
So you came back to the farm in 2015. What prompted you to come back to the farm?
[00:02:33] Jock
So, I guess, Before that I was primarily involved with looking after another part of the family business, which is our butchery business, and which I came back to in 2007. And then I came, and I came back to the, yeah, so I came back to the butchery business in 2007. Before that, I was a building services engineer.
By trade.
[00:02:55] Cal
Oh,
[00:02:56] Jock
And then, unfortunately, both my parents died in fairly quick succession. So I moved up to the farm in 2015 to take that on then.
[00:03:05] Cal
Did you think you'd always come back to the farm?
[00:03:08] Jock
No, it was a one first generation and only generation business. So dad, dad bought the farm in the mid seventies. And as far as he was concerned, it was, you know, it was to be sold and, you know, mom and dad were going to retire. So, and even coming back to the butchery business, I came back for a short period of time.
Mom hadn't been well. She wanted to sell the business, dad didn't, and I was discovering I was a crap engineer and needed to do something different. So, that was, that was basically my return home, and yeah, you know, we are however many years down the line and still got the butchery, still got the farm, so that's where we are.
[00:03:51] Cal
So, so the question of the chicken or the egg, which came first, the farm or the butchery?
[00:03:57] Jock
It was definitely the farm. So when dad bought the farm, he started off with pedigree Highland cattle. At that time the breed was very much a minority breed. And so he was very much involved in pedigree sales. And that was based in the UK to begin with. And that built up until the mid, 90s when we were exporting embryos and semen all around the world.
So America was a big market for us, and but also Australia, New Zealand and Scandinavia.
[00:04:35] Cal
Oh, yes.
[00:04:37] Jock
But then and now actually, for every pedigree Highland bull you sell or pedigree Highland heifer you sell, you've got a heap of unfancied steers and heifers
[00:04:49] Cal
Right.
[00:04:50] Jock
don't make the grade. You So,
you know, there were very little value in them and so buying a butcher shop was a way of trying to value add and get the value out of a really high quality cattle, really good quality carcasses, but certainly in the UK.
It's, you know, continental animals are much more fancied, you know, you have euros, you have charelots, limousins, things like that.
[00:05:15] Cal
Highlands have gotten popular over here, especially on the smaller farms. And my wife sees pictures of highland calves and she's like, oh, I need one. I've not gone there yet, but there's a few up the road from me.
[00:05:29] Jock
Yeah, so, you know, from our point of view you know, they make an excellent suckler cow. You know, we can stick them out in all weathers and they just, they don't bat an eyelid, they just
sit there. Face the worst of the weather and go, is that all you've got for me? But the trade off with that is you get some pretty slow growing carbs out of them.
[00:05:50] Cal
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now on your farm you are Pastured for life. Let's see. Make sure I'm saying this right. I've got it wrote down pastured for life certified What is that
[00:06:04] Jock
so that's the certification scheme that we have in the UK here. And basically what that does is certify that we only use grass and forage on our farm. So there's no concentrate feed ever. Yep. And there's a number of other things in there as well, but it's really to try and hit that market for consumers that are looking for that 100 percent grass fed beef.
Because, you know, there's a, there's quite a lot of confusion. You always, especially for the consumer, every animal is grass fed to a degree, but, you know, what that degree is can, can vary. So this was, this scheme was designed to take that ambiguity out of it.
[00:06:50] Cal
Is that a recent change on your farm or did your dad do very much grass based
[00:06:55] Jock
So, Dad Dad was very much an extensive farmer you know, he was an early adopter of outwintering forages, you know, our winter here is six, seven months long typically so that's a long time to house animals, which is what would, would normally happen. But we did use a modicum of concentrate feed either.
Distillers waste or Bruce barley or whatever it was. I've always, it's, you know, when we are talking about a grass based grass fed product, it's never sat comfortably with me that we say it's a grass fed animal. But we also feed two kilos of barley per head per day, you know,
[00:07:39] Cal
Right, yeah.
[00:07:39] Jock
So it was a move that I was quite keen to make and and then pasture for life came along and it just, that framework helped just move us along that last little bit to getting rid of all the concentrate feed.
And it's, it's great. I mean, we don't, we have to think harder about what we're doing. You know, if we make a mistake, we can't just call up our favorite feed merchants and haul in a lorry of the best stuff,
[00:08:08] Cal
Oh yeah.
[00:08:10] Jock
so it does, it does mean that we have to think about what we're doing slightly and, you know, preserve forage quality, especially it's absolutely key for us.
[00:08:21] Cal
Did you, when you changed to that or started really focusing on that grass fed for life, pasture for life, did that change some of your pasture management or were you already managing your pastures in a way that worked for that?
[00:08:38] Jock
So, I guess we'd, we changed our pasture management a bit before that, and that enabled us to then make the finally, we couldn't have done it the other way around. So, We were very much, when I took on the farm, it was very much set stocking. You know, you'd eat a paddock, bare bones, and then, and then move on.
And it was in around about 2018, we first started looking at rotational grazing. So, and that was on pretty short rotations, quite tight areas, so. You're looking at 21 day rotations
[00:09:13] Cal
Oh
[00:09:13] Jock
but we did that
in a year where for us, it was really dry. I don't use the word dry because, you know, there's parts of the world.
That, that get dry. We just get a little bit of dry for an extended period of time. But what it, what it highlighted to me, that power of rest, and was that we could always keep feed in front of our animals. Our animals did really well. They kept, you know, they were growing really well. They finished well, and we had control.
And I was watching other people, Who were starting to feed early, you know, you know, winter feed was coming out early and it just, that just proved to me how we could make it work and move the business on.
[00:10:00] Cal
What, what got you interested in rotational grazing?
[00:10:06] Jock
So, we're quite a small farm here and when we inherited the farm we had, we only had 30 breeding cows on 100 acres plus some seasonal grazing let's. And so. I didn't have enough cows to pay the bills, but I didn't have enough grounds to put more cows on, and I just couldn't see a way out of it, and so it was that, you know, necessity is the mother of all invention, and seeing other people starting to paddock grazing, trying to get, get an idea of what they were doing, and then implement that here so that we could it.
You know, we started to grow more grass, we could increase our stocking rate, bring down finishing times as well to a certain degree. And it just, it just started to give us, it's back to that control and, but also
that freedom as well. So,
[00:11:00] Cal
Yeah. Now you got this pasture for life certification. You've changed your, your grazing management. Are you finding the public is very receptive to your pasture for life certification and they want that?
[00:11:16] Jock
There is an element of that. I mean, we, through the butcher shop, we charge quite a healthy premium. for the product that we produce. And, you know, beef in the UK is already really expensive.
[00:11:30] Cal
Oh
[00:11:30] Jock
We, what I feel that we're doing is we're putting in the things in place to justify the premium that we're asking for.
[00:11:40] Cal
Oh
[00:11:41] Jock
And it's also to differentiate ourselves from the competition so that, you know, we can stand out a wee bit and have a bit of that competitive, competitive advantage in the butcher shop. But the benefit back on farm is that we are more resilient and we are, I feel that we're producing a better product.
[00:12:04] Cal
Oh, yeah, and are you producing or are you sending all your coal animals or all your animals through your butcher shop?
[00:12:13] Jock
So all our prime animals go through the butcher shop. We have sold a few store animals in the past, and that's, that's usually been cash flow management which isn't ideal, we're still in the herd building phase, so, you know, it's, it's not been ideal, but all the prime animals that aren't retained for breeding go through the butcher shop.
Cull animals we actually put into the cull market, not because I don't think that there's good value to be had from them or that it's, it's bad eating quality. It's just a very different product to what we would be putting through the butcher shop as standard.
[00:12:53] Cal
Oh, yeah, because you're striving for that premium product.
[00:12:58] Jock
We're striving for that premium product, but it also has to be something that the consumer can readily accept. And we've done a great job in, certainly in the UK, of saying that, That prime animal is a heifer or a steer that's less than 48 months old, and it's probably nearer 24. You know, it is not an old animal, but actually there's a lot to be had from that older animal, but our, our consumer base isn't conditioned for that.
[00:13:31] Cal
Oh, yeah, which is very important to know your consumer base and what they're looking for.
[00:13:37] Jock
Yeah, and we could put one or two of these through a year as a special, as something different for people to, to get into. And we do that quite successfully with rare breed lambs, for example, some of the heritage breeds. But it's yeah, as a routine thing, it would be too different from, from what we're doing as a mainstream.
[00:13:59] Cal
Oh, yeah. Yeah You have the butchery and you have the farm Are they both sustainable on their, on their own or are they, they work so well together that you would hate to separate them?
[00:14:15] Jock
Good question. It's. The way that we're geared up, it would be very difficult to split them apart and have them, you know, to sell one off and for the other to survive, for example,
not without major, major change, you know, parts of the challenge we build in a certain amount of inefficiency on the farm.
Because we need that year round supply. So, you know, we're not having big lots of animals ready at the one time, for example. Which is why we play with the variety of breeds that we do. But certainly with the Highlanders. You know, if we didn't have the butcher shop, they would have to go pretty much in their entirety.
There is not a viable commercial market for them, and we probably wouldn't be pasture for life.
[00:15:07] Cal
Oh, yes. Yeah.
[00:15:08] Jock
because again, without the direct sales, there isn't yet the market for that. And then at that point, I don't know how much interest I would have in the farming side of it. Because we'd be farming for a commercial customer that we don't have a lot of sway with, whereas at the moment, we can take direct feedback from our customer, from the consumer, and tailor what we're doing to suit,
[00:15:38] Cal
Oh,
[00:15:39] Jock
and sometimes we go, well, Consumer would really like this, but that doesn't fit, or actually they want this and we can get really excited by that.
[00:15:50] Cal
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that what did consumers or what drove kind of your inclusion of shorehorn into your highlands?
[00:15:59] Jock
So again, it's that that consumer piece, I guess. One of the customer bases that we work a lot with is chefs in hotels and restaurants, for example.
And again, it's having that carcass, which fits that market a bit better. The shorthorn is great in providing a bit more confirmation to the carcass, and it helps speed up the finishing time as well.
Without losing too much in terms of winter hardiness. And, you know, we certainly don't have particularly have temperament problems, you know, structurally, they're a good animal and fit this environment really well.
[00:16:41] Cal
When you, you're crossing them, do you, I guess this is really a, a simple question, or I think it'd be a simple one. You get a Shorthorn with longer hair. Of course, it's a, it's a combination of two breeds, so it makes them winter or more winter hardy for your environment.
Yeah,
[00:17:01] Jock
yeah, so we do, we just get that you get a shorthorn that's maybe a bit more winter hardy or, or a highlander which is less winter hardy, whichever way you want to
[00:17:12] Cal
yeah,
[00:17:12] Jock
it. It's, it's trying to get that compromise. You do get a wee bit of hybrid bigger as well in there and it's, you know, it's just, it's breeds that work for us without getting a carcass that's too big as well.
So,
We're trying to keep relatively moderate size. Moderate sized carcasses. So it's trying to trying to keep a lid on that as well without going to massive frame scores and things like that.
[00:17:44] Cal
Before we transition and talk more about beef cow production in the northern part of Scotland, why did you choose shorthorn as opposed to some other breeds?
[00:17:58] Jock
So, good question. So we kind of inherited shorthorn genetics. That was a decision that Dad's had made.
[00:18:05] Cal
Oh, okay, your dad had started it.
[00:18:07] Jock
so he, he started it and he also had Aberdeen Angus here as well,
[00:18:12] Cal
Oh
[00:18:12] Jock
but we, I quite quickly got rid of a lot of the Aberdeen Angus that we had here, just built out those genetics. What we were finding was that, and it was a particular bull that had come in at one point, which needed, you know, the offspring needed a lot going into them to get condition onto the carcasses, and then the mature cows, Would bully other cows out of feeders and just hose all the food and, you know, leave the smaller animals behind.
And they would just, for us, for the system that we were trying to adapt to, they were just too high energy. They also were very prone to prolapsing, so, calving. So, it was just, it wasn't a happy experience. So, we just. Very quickly culled them out of the system. We've still got some Anguses left, but the ones that fit with the system rather than you know, they're particularly because they're Anguses.
[00:19:17] Cal
Very interesting. I always think a person's journey to what breed they use is very interesting. Interesting. And of course, within breeds, there's so much variation. You find what works for you.
[00:19:29] Jock
Yeah. And I think we're actually in the, probably going to take the, get rid of the Highland Bull for a bit and bring in.
[00:19:38] Cal
Oh, yes.
[00:19:39] Jock
Because again, it's just trying to build up a carcass size a wee bit. So the bottom end of our Highlanders are very small, very slow growing, and I need to get them through the system as well a bit quicker.
One of the restrictions that we have here still is overhang of BSE rules. So all our cattle that are going into the butcher shop, we want to hang them on the bone, dry edge them on the bone. They have to be under 30 months by the time of slaughter.
[00:20:09] Cal
Oh,
[00:20:10] Jock
And the Highland breed doesn't necessarily fit into that without a lot of hard feed going into them.
And even then, if you do that, the carcass quality is not always that great. You know, you're just pushing them harder than they're meant to be pushed.
[00:20:25] Cal
Right, right. What did you say you were going to bring in instead of a highland bull?
[00:20:31] Jock
It's a luing so I don't know if you get that across there.
[00:20:35] Cal
Actually, can you spell that for me? Because I'm not even sure what you're saying for
sure.
[00:20:39] Jock
it's L U I N G. And it's,
[00:20:43] Cal
Oh, okay.
[00:20:45] Jock
breed named after an island in Scotland. And it's basically a stabilised Highlands shorthorn cross.
[00:20:53] Cal
Oh, okay.
[00:20:54] Jock
So, and it was, I think it was originally breed in the sort of 50s, 60s on the island of Luing, and then the, the started to sell the genetics on the mainland. Once they built up the herd on Luing a bit.
And,
[00:21:13] Cal
Oh, yes.
[00:21:14] Jock
again, the very, one of them is you, you get quite a lot of polled. So you don't that dehorning issue and, and things like that. And so it's, yeah, they're, they're a good sensible breed,
[00:21:28] Cal
Oh, very good. Very interesting. Jock, let's transition to our overgrazing section sponsored by Redmond.
At Redmond, we know that you thrive when your animals do. That's why it's essential to fill the gaps in your herd's nutrition with the minerals that they need. Made by nature, our ancient mineral salt and conditioner clay are the catalyst in optimizing the nutrients your animals get from their forage.
Unaltered and unrefined, our minerals have the natural balance and proportion to help that your animals prefer. This gives your herd the ability to naturally regulate their mineral consumption as they graze. Our minerals won't just help you improve the health of your animals, but will also help you naturally build soil fertility so you can grow more nutrient dense pasture year after year.
Nourish your animals, your soil, and your life with Redmond. Learn more at redmondagriculture. com
[00:22:33] Cal
It's a section where we take a deeper dive into your operation. We're going to talk about grass to beef in northern Scotland, which is very different from mid US for me. I'm in Oklahoma, we have a really nice environment. Wally Olson likes to say it's the best place to grow a beef cow. I'm not sure too many people would say that where you're located.
[00:22:56] Jock
I don't know. I think everywhere has their challenges.
[00:23:01] Cal
Do. You're, you're exactly right
[00:23:03] Jock
you know, it's I've been very fortunate. I've at the start of this year, I spent three months traveling through bits of South America, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and You know, we have a 6 month winter here and other places they have a 2 month summer dry, you know, other places it doesn't rain for 18 months.
So, I would, what we can do here very effectively is grow grass. You know, we are in a,
[00:23:28] Cal
Oh, yes.
[00:23:29] Jock
know, we will, we can grow 10, 12 tons of dry matter per hectare per year here. So the biggest challenge is utilising it. You know, if it gets very wet. So, where we are particularly in Scotland we have a bit of a microclimate.
So we get
typically just under a metre of rainfall a year. So it's, it's pretty moderate places on the West Coast will get three times that anyway. And
[00:23:57] Cal
Oh, yeah.
[00:23:58] Jock
so, we can, we can sort of graze reasonably effectively during the growing season. So we'll grow grass from end of March until the end of October,
[00:24:12] Cal
Oh, okay. So, yeah, that's, that's very similar to here. I thought you may be in a more wetter area, but that's not too bad there. You got plenty of rain, but not too
[00:24:23] Jock
not too much. Yeah, it's good. I mean, this year we've had a lot of rain. And as I say, places, you know, further west from us, and not that much further west, we'd get a lot more than that. So, I, you know, we're in a very nice
farm, an area to farm here, and you know, we're in the, on the Murray Firth coast there, and it's we're about 600 feet up above sea level so, again, not too high.
And it's, it's side facing farm, so really it's easy. Really.
[00:24:56] Cal
Oh yeah, well I know your pictures from Instagram looking at your grass there. It's very pretty and, and tons of grass production. So as you mentioned, growing grass is not that bad, but how do you get it throughout the winter? Or keep your cattle on grass fed forage base? Are you able to stockpile forages in your environment?
[00:25:21] Jock
Yeah. So we do a bit of a mixture now. So, what we'll do is we'll take out about we, I like to go into the winter with about a thousand bales of silage and,
[00:25:34] Cal
Oh,
[00:25:34] Jock
So it is a reasonably. High level of silage. Ideally I'd like to make hay, but I haven't got the patience and you know, getting the weather window here isn't always that easy.
And I don't have the kit on farm to do it. And yeah, there's, there's a lot of reasons or excuses that I make for not making hay um, where silage is very easy, you just bale it and wrap it
so, we outwinter all our cows, so, and they will be on deferred grazing with bales placed out in the field, so that all we have to do is take the plastic off, move a fence, and they get a bit of the grass and a bit of the silage. And if we have snow during the winter, you know, they won't get the grass, but they'll get the silage.
So, that's what we do with them, and then they'll come in. To carve around about mid February and then as soon as they've carved, they get thrown back outside again for our young stock and growing stock. We have tried to outwinter them. We tried to outwinter them for 3 years on the trot and I wasn't getting the results that I wanted.
And so we've started to bring them back inside again. And again, they just get better down on straw beds with silage in front of them. And because during that winter period to the growing and finishing stock, I don't need them to be doing massive amounts of weight gain. But I do need them doing 0. 4, 0.
5, even 0. 6 of a kilo a day, so that when we come out in the spring, they've got a good spring and summer ahead of them and If when we were out wintering them, what we were finding is we were losing weight, losing condition so that
they were more likely having to hit a second winter, and it was negatively affecting eating quality as well.
So we've. We've pulled the pin on that and we now just bring them in until I can find a better way of keeping them out.
[00:27:44] Cal
just jump back just a little bit. So you're doing silage bale grazing basically for winter feed, putting it out there, and I make an assumption here because I've not worked with silage bales, but I've worked with a little bit with silage, but you're going out there each time you're moving them and cutting the plastic off the bale at that
[00:28:04] Jock
Yeah, so when
[00:28:05] Cal
because it's not something you can just set out there and have them all ready to go.
[00:28:09] Jock
no, you have
[00:28:10] Cal
takes just a little bit, but it's not a lot.
[00:28:12] Jock
yeah, you have to keep the plastic on them. So we, we start, we put them out on their ends and so
you'll take, you'll take all the plastic off them apart from the disk of plastic that sits underneath the bail, essentially. And then, so you take that off, take the net off, they'll eat it, most of it and then the next day when you're going to open up the next bale, you pick up the ring that's, the disc of plastic, that's probably been trodden into the ground slightly.
We're not using Feed rings, because that's another thing that somebody has to upend, push around and do all of that and, and high winds and things. It's not cool.
[00:28:53] Cal
Yeah. Yeah, no, I completely agree. Minimize those things you have to do. Those little things add
up. Just Well, it's only five minutes, but it's five minutes every day, so
[00:29:07] Jock
exactly. And, you know, we're a very small land based here for what we're farming on, but it's quite spread out. So, you know, we're having to go between a number of different farms to do all this. So when we do it, we need it to be quick and as easy as possible. And. Minimum, minimum skill, minimum kit needed, and all of these things so we've really been able to speed up our winter routine and how much time we spend each day feeding, feeding cattle by going to this bale grazing rather than having bales out and rings that we're taking out to them every single day.
[00:29:48] Cal
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:50] Jock
We have the ability here to take two cuts of silage a year.
[00:29:55] Cal
Oh,
yes.
[00:29:56] Jock
but we, I've cut all fertilizer out of the system here now. So, and that's been great on a number of levels, but what it does mean is that second cut silage isn't that clever. So we try and take our entire silage requirement.
out of the 1st cut and then what would be taking 2nd cut will defer the grass on that. So, over the next number of years, what I'm hoping to do is adjust stocking levels to a point where we're meeting. Winter forage requirements are to first cut and probably actually reducing the amount of silage we make overall.
[00:30:36] Cal
Oh, yes. With your, your area you're making silage from, are you also grazing that area? I think you said deferred grazing, so you're bringing them in later in the year for that area.
[00:30:50] Jock
and we try and rotate our silage ground around so that we're not cutting the same field each year. Again, just because we're not, the only nutrients we're putting back in. is farmyard manure that we're taking out of sheds. So we've got to be really careful with things like potash levels and and what have you.
[00:31:10] Cal
Are you planning anything extra for the silage, or is it just your regular pasture that you're putting into silage?
[00:31:19] Jock
At the moment we're just putting in you know, it's all ryegrass clover swards here. We have started to play with more diversity in there. So things like chicory, plantain lucerne, these things, but I'm, I've discovered that I'm not very good at many things, but I am very good at killing herbs. So it's, it's, it's not been entirely successful and persistency is, I'm really struggling with.
So.
But what I am seeing is, as we increase rest periods on paddocks, we are slowly starting to see a bit more diversity come into it. So, I'm starting to lose less sleep over what we're reseeding with, so long as it grows, it's good for cattle, and
hopefully the diversity will start to come. But, you know, we're still on Relatively short rotation periods here.
We would be this year. We were typically 30 day, 40 day rotations
with the maximum being a 60 day rotation. So I like to be around about that 30 days. It takes us out of a parasite zone, parasite burden and it just, the farm just seems to sing at that point.
[00:32:48] Cal
Oh, yes. Yeah. Very good. With your You're outwintering, and do you have a plugging issue with your cows? Does it get very muddy for you? Are you able to to move them rapidly enough? It's not a problem.
[00:33:06] Jock
We, we, we do struggle with it. And when we used to sow
borage crops, particularly for outwintering, so it would be a Turnip, kale fodder radish, all these good things would be in a mix, and we would strip feed that out, and what you left behind was something that resembled a battlefield. So, and, you know, for me, it was one day I was taking a picture of these cows in a, in a forage crop, and I was about to put the picture up on Instagram, and I was looking at it, and going I can't put it up because my customer won't understand what I'm doing.
I'm going to have to explain myself. And I thought, well, if I can't put it up, I probably shouldn't be doing it. So that's when we moved to just deferred grazing and putting, setting out bales. And the cattle have stood up a lot better in that. It's been much better for man and beast actually during the winter.
But we still create quite a bit of damage and this year we went through a full cultivation, ploughed cultivator and then reseeded. I would quite like to try and be able to harrow reseed that way. Stitch it in, but we just need to see how much damage we do. We're targeting our bale grazing and deferred grazing areas on grounds that probably needs to be reseeded anyway.
[00:34:38] Cal
Oh, yeah.
[00:34:39] Jock
So, typically here, under normal circumstances, we'd be reseeding every seven or eight years. trying now to get that to at least 10, if not 14 years. So, but that's going to be a bit of trial and error and see, see what we can do with it.
[00:34:59] Cal
Oh, yeah. Very good. With your, your animals, and you're, you're bringing your calves in, or your young stock in, and you're wintering them in the barn, but you're feeding them and stuff, and you're shooting for processing them before that second winter.
[00:35:15] Jock
Yes. So the best of the short horns, we will be able to process at 18, 19 months old.
[00:35:26] Cal
Oh, okay.
[00:35:27] Jock
then we we then have basically that crop of calves from that particular year, we're looking to process over the next 12 months. So that's where the mixture of Highland and Shorthorn genetics is really useful because it spreads out that finishing time.
The
[00:35:45] Cal
Well, I was about to ask you, Jock, on that, because you're calving at one point, but you need animals year round. But that's a great point that that, that cross gives you a variety of, of endpoints.
[00:36:00] Jock
absolutely. And it's, it does help just give us that consistent supply all year round that we need for the butchers shop. The problem is with some of the highlands, you know, the bottom end will maybe not get through in that 12 months. And so they might be further on and that at that point, once they see a third winter.
They're starting to get really quite expensive.
[00:36:26] Cal
Oh yeah, yeah. With your your Stock and finishing them. Do you do anything different towards the end of their life before processing? Or is it just continuing till they hit a certain point and you're like that animal's ready to be processed.
[00:36:48] Jock
Yeah. We'd, we try, we don't do anything particularly different. What I do try to do is not dramatically change their diet or their environment too close to them going off. And again, that's very much a stress. Eating quality outcome decision. But yeah, we don't, we don't have a lot that we can play with with, you know, we can't up, you know, we can't increase a concentrate feed, for example, or, or anything like that.
But it is, it is really important that as they are heading to slaughter, that they are on that really high rising. Plane of nutrition, so that they can go off with really good glycerol levels within the system to help mitigate any stress within the journey and within the slaughter process.
[00:37:43] Cal
Oh, very good. Yes you'd mentioned earlier that you all had stopped fertilizers. Are you using any chemicals, any dewormers on your farm? Or is, you've moved away from all that as
[00:37:59] Jock
we don't use any sprays and on the fields or anything like that. We have pretty much stopped using wormers. So we've stopped all chemicals that uh, are applied to, applied to the farm. We've stopped wormers and pour-ons to a point, but we will act reactively if we think animals are picking up a worm burden, we will treat them.
[00:38:28] Cal
Oh, yeah.
[00:38:29] Jock
We're, we're trying to adapt our grazing to minimize the exposure to a worm burden, for example.
And just, and just keep an eye. And the further we go down that road you know, the more resilience we build into our cattle herd so that we don't have to do that. I'm pretty shy with putting out minerals as well, but
that's that sort of come and bit me this year. We had a very poor scanning rate just last month, and that was down to, we think, down to low selenium.
So we're having to address that with minerals now. And, and I think, you know, we've got away with it in the past, but with a, we had a very wet spring. An early summer here, and I think that's just leached minerals out of the ground and cows haven't been able to get that uptake and it's, it's affected them in pregnancy and in conception.
[00:39:25] Cal
Oh, yeah.
[00:39:26] Jock
so, yeah, it's, it's been a bit painful, that exercise, but I guess at the same time, you know, you maybe need, you cut all these things out. And then you need to work out what you actually need to put in rather than what you think you have to put in just to be safe because the two are slightly different.
[00:39:47] Cal
So being very conscious of what you're adding back in and, and trying not to just
add everything in just because.
[00:39:57] Jock
to be a bit more targeted you know, because at the end of the day, again, looking at it through the consumer's eyes, you know, we can add every, herbicide, insecticide, pesticide into the system, you know, wormers, drenches, the lot. And, you know, the, they hang around in our environment for an awfully long time.
So and they're expensive. And, you know, we don't need half of them, but we need to know which half we need to use. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not suggesting everybody just cuts everything out and watches the wheels fall off and then tries
[00:40:38] Cal
Oh, right.
[00:40:39] Jock
on. But I think we do need to be questioning what we use, when we use it, and how we use it all the time.
[00:40:47] Cal
Yeah. Sometimes we have to be careful of going code turkey, whole hog code turkey. And Because we're not ready, our animals are not ready for that endpoint that we see in the future that we want. It's, it's a journey to get there and we gotta be careful getting there.
[00:41:04] Jock
Absolutely, and I think there is that pressure that there's this middle where we want to be, and there's a lot of pressure that we need to be there now. And
[00:41:13] Cal
Oh yeah,
[00:41:14] Jock
you know, where there is, there's a lot of rungs in the ladder. That you need to climb before you get, before you get there. And so yeah, and sometimes you're going to come back down the ladder before you can go back up it.
[00:41:27] Cal
oh yeah, yeah. And, and just, if you think about just your cattle genetics or epigenetics to get there, they're, that's going to take a long time. That's not just a switch you
[00:41:38] Jock
No, no. And especially when you're looking at epigenetics it, you know, there's so much in there that needs to be, that needs to be looked at. And yeah, it's not just, it's not even one iteration. It's, you know, five, six, seven iterations before you get there.
[00:41:54] Cal
Yeah on your You're selling to the consumer and I think Just from someone who doesn't I sell a little bit direct consumer We're hoping to do more but you all having the butchery and selling direct consumer It's I would assume that's amazing feedback for what you're doing. So when you made the change to rotational grazing and being pasture for life certification.
What did you notice the difference in your meat that you produced?
[00:42:29] Jock
So, in terms of. All the changes that we made, it takes loads of consumer boxes, customer boxes of what they wanted us to be doing.
[00:42:39] Cal
Oh, yeah.
[00:42:40] Jock
The one thing that I came up with though, came up against, was that the consistency of our finished product wasn't the same. So we were
[00:42:50] Cal
Oh, yes.
[00:42:51] Jock
a variability. into our product that I, I wasn't, and I'm not comfortable with.
You know, it, you'll suddenly, when you take out that concentrate feed, you are suddenly much more exposed to the natural environment. You're much more exposed to feed quality. And all these things. So, you know, we were introducing a variability into our product. And, so, we're now looking at what we can do to try and improve that consistency again.
And, consi consistency is a bit of a double edged sword. We can all create. a consistent product, but for us it has to be consistently good. You know, consistently mediocre or consistently bad isn't, isn't where we want to end
[00:43:42] Cal
Not going to quite get you there.
[00:43:44] Jock
So, and I'm, I'm very lucky at the moment. I'm doing I'm doing a Nuffield scholarship.
I don't know if you've come across that but there is a number of American Nuffield scholars. And so part of that scholarship is traveling to various countries. Looking at systems and processes and methods as to how we improve that product quality.
[00:44:06] Cal
Oh, very good. I did see that on information about you, but I'm not familiar with it at all.
[00:44:13] Jock
Yeah, so I mean, Nuffield Scholarships Trust is an amazing organization. It started in UK in the mid fifties. And it basically. Provides a scholarship to farmers and in related industries to go and study a topic of their choice, and then they report back to, to Nuffield in their various country and to the wider industry.
So, started in the UK, but there is now Nuffield International. Which takes in a lot of scholars from around the world. So, I think this year, in our year group, we probably had about six or seven American Nuffield scholars. There's some Canadians, about the same Canadians as well, so there's Nuffield Canada.
Nuffield Australia is really big now in New Zealand. And it's, yeah, it's just really humbling to be in a group of, I think there's 80 odd scholars each year worldwide, and you all meet up once a year, and it's just really humbling to be in. A group of these brilliant minds. I don't know how the hell I got into it, but there we go.
I got there, I
[00:45:20] Cal
But you got there.
That's the important
[00:45:22] Jock
my way in.
[00:45:24] Cal
Yeah, that sounds really interesting. Like I said, I wasn't familiar with it, but I pulled it up on my screen to, to look more at that. That's very interesting.
[00:45:34] Jock
Yeah, no, it's, it's a really positive group of people that, that just want other people to be doing well. Which is certainly in this country can be quite a rare thing within agriculture. You know, it's, but it's just a really positive group of people and the knowledge that is held within that organization and the people that have done scholarships, that collective knowledge is just immense.
[00:46:02] Cal
And how far are you in that journey for getting that? Are you about complete with that? Are you just starting midway?
[00:46:11] Jock
So I've done about a, what have I done? I've done about six weeks of travel, independent travel. So you're meant to do about six to eight weeks of independent travel. The whole process is around about two years. So, My travel started in March this year when we had the international conference in Brazil, and then I traveled on from there.
And then in the new year, I'm hoping to come over to the US and Canada to do about a month's worth of travel. And then and then I'll need to come back and, write it all up, write my report, produce a video and all of these things. So you have to sing for yourself.
[00:46:50] Cal
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So what kind of farms or what are you focused on on your travels?
[00:46:59] Jock
So the title of my topic is enhanced meat eating quality from 100 percent grass and forage fed beef. And so what I'm looking at is how we feed and breed animals. For that really good eating quality experience. And so looking at different systems, principles of production, whether it's on farm, whether it's in processing, or whether it's in butchery to produce that.
Really good, consistent eating quality. One of the challenges is, what is good eating quality? What does that look like? And, you know, it very much depends on where your market is. You know, it could be you know, it could be intrinsic stuff like flavor, tenderness, succulents. It could be extrinsic, whether it's grass fed, grain fed.
Native bread, Euro bread or it could just simply be, can I afford to buy it? And, you know, that's been quite a humbling thing. It's, it's very much it's almost a project of privilege because so many people in the world Don't get to consider it. They don't have the luxury of considering what good eating quality is.
They just want to be able to afford it and get the nutrition from that. So, but yeah, looking at all parts of the supply chain and processing to see what we can learn and bring together to have that. Production methods that doesn't rely on concentrate feeds that is suitable for a particular environment and can produce that really good quality product.
[00:48:41] Cal
Yeah. Well, very interesting. It'll be interesting to see how that goes for you and find out what you find out.
[00:48:50] Jock
Yeah, I look forward to getting it all written up and just, at the moment I've got in my head, I've got this big puzzle ball. And you've got to get it into a circle, and every time you poke a bit in, something pops out at the other side, and it's, you know, trying to get it all, all to mesh together is, is tricky, but it's, it's like everything, everything is about compromise.
[00:49:13] Cal
Oh, yes. Yeah. Today we've done a really quick run through about your operation. Producing beef in Northern Scotland Your journey. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you thought? Hey, this is something I want to talk about
[00:49:29] Jock
you know, we don't have a hellish complicated system here. You know, it's, it's pretty simple and, and each year it gets a bit simpler. So it's you know, there's always things that we can change and you know, how we, how we make the business more resilient. I'm, I, I slightly rail against the thought of being efficient, because I think we can
efficient ourselves into a whole, we can efficient ourselves to the bottom of the pile.
We need to be effective. We need to be resilient, but. You know, we need to, we need to have wriggle room in what we're doing so that if something does come along that knocks us for six, it's not going to derail the whole program. It's not going to cost a lot of money to buy your way out of it or, or whatever, and you're just less reliant on factors out with your control.
[00:50:26] Cal
Oh, yeah. Yeah, and and lastly, where do you see the future for? Edinburgh Edinville is the Edinburgh
[00:50:36] Jock
Yeah.
[00:50:37] Cal
For Edinville Farms and Macbeth Butchery
[00:50:40] Jock
so I think what's quite exciting is we are trying to grow our business and that, you know, we're doing that in a, in an environment where, you know, our national cattle herds in the UK is falling.
[00:50:54] Cal
Oh, yeah.
[00:50:55] Jock
you know, we're politically it's quite tough here at the moment. So, you know, but there's definitely opportunity.
We're still looking at increasing herd size, you know, looking at opportunities where we can maybe take on more ground. And you know, maybe, you know, we're very reliant on renting grounds here off estates and other places. And hopefully some more of those opportunities will come as we can demonstrate that we're farming in a, Sympathetic manner to the environment that we're trying to enhance our environment even so, and hopefully that story will feed into what we do in the butchery, what it will do to the, for our consumers.
We've had a really good busy year in the butchers so far, and hopefully that continues, and it's just trying to build on that and use that momentum to keep moving forward and innovating and building our customer base.
[00:51:51] Cal
Very good. Jock, really appreciate you sharing with us today. But it's time for us to transition to the famous four questions. Same four questions we ask of all of our guests. And it's sponsored by Kencove Farm Fence.
Kencove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass podcast and graziers everywhere. At Kencove Farm Fence, they believe there's true value within the community of graziers and land stewards. The results that follow proper management and monitoring can change the very world around us. That's why Kencove is dedicated to providing an ever expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant.
Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, Kencove has everything you need to do it well. From reels to tumblewheels, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Kencove. They carry brands like Speedrite, O'Brien's, Kiwitech, Strainrite, Jobe, and more.
Kencove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey. Call them today or visit Kencove.com. And be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Kencove YouTube channel @KencoveFarmFence for helpful how to videos and new product releases!
[00:53:15] Jock
cool.
[00:53:16] Cal
Our first question. What's your favorite grazing grass related book or resource?
[00:53:21] Jock
So I really like the resources that we get through Pasture for Life and some of the learning that we do that. But actually, probably up until relatively recently, but my favorite resource was Twitter. Or X as it's now called, because it immediately opened you up to loads of fantastic people doing fantastic things all around the world.
And, you know, most people who are sharing on social media are really open to questions and what have you. The other thing I, I would say that probably almost I don't think I'm underestimating it, understating it when I say it probably saved our farm and certainly saved me, is that we've got a podcast over here called The Pasture Pod by a guy called Michael
[00:54:10] Cal
Oh yeah.
[00:54:10] Jock
and that has just been phenomenal and has really helped me in developing what we do here.
The way Michael questions people and gets the information out of people and is able to get that across in a really relatable way is just incredible. So that's been,
[00:54:29] Cal
Oh, very good.
[00:54:30] Jock
yeah, amazing.
[00:54:33] Cal
Excellent. I'm, I'm gonna have to look that pot up. Not familiar with it.
[00:54:37] Jock
It's got awful theme tunes.
[00:54:40] Cal
Oh yeah. Our, our second question, what is your favorite tool for the farm?
[00:54:47] Jock
I've got two. So, an electric reel. And Agriweb,
[00:54:53] Cal
So why is the electric grill your
[00:54:57] Jock
electric reel just,
[00:54:58] Cal
Oh, electric grill. Sorry. I thought you said electric drill.
[00:55:02] Jock
I
[00:55:02] Cal
Sorry about that.
[00:55:04] Jock
can find a use for that too right now.
[00:55:06] Cal
Yeah, yeah. I was like, well, I use mine quite a bit, but
[00:55:10] Jock
Yeah, favourite.
No, electric reel and yeah, and Agriweb.
[00:55:17] Cal
Okay, very good. Our third question, what would you tell someone just getting started?
[00:55:24] Jock
Getting started in farming or getting started in grazing?
[00:55:28] Cal
Either way, it's, it's, either way you want to take that works for us.
[00:55:34] Jock
So, if it's, yeah, either way, hustle. Get, you know, just try things. Get involved. Don't be afraid of making mistakes. It's, you know, some mistakes seem big at the time, but, you know, you have to ask yourself, is it going to matter in five minutes, five days, five months? Five years. And I I find that incredibly useful to get perspective on things.
But yeah, just keep trying, keep an open mind, go for it.
[00:56:06] Cal
Yes, excellent advice there. And lastly, Jock, where can others find out more about you?
[00:56:11] Jock
So, I'm on Twitter at Edenvale Farm and also Macbeth's Butchers, Facebook, the same, Instagram. I think the farm is now on Blue Sky as well. You know, email, phone, you know, there's lots of ways of getting in touch with us if you want to learn more about what we're doing. You want to come and see us, we welcome people to come and visit.
I'm very lucky this year that I think. We've had visitors from five continents on the farm this year, so I'm feeling incredibly privileged for that. So, I think we haven't had anybody from Africa or Antarctica would be the two continents.
[00:56:54] Cal
next
year, so.
[00:56:55] Jock
exactly.
[00:56:57] Cal
Jock, we appreciate you coming on and sharing today. We've enjoyed it.
[00:57:01] Jock
Thank you for having me. It's been good fun.
[00:57:03] Cal
Thank you for listening to this episode of the grazing grass podcast, where we bring you stories and insights into grass-based livestock production. If you're new here, we've got something just for you. Our new listener resource guide. Is packed with everything you need to get started on your listening journey with a grazing grass podcast. It gives you more information about the podcast about myself. And next steps. You can grab your free copy at grazinggrass.com slash guide. Don't miss out. And Hey, do you have a grazing story to share? We're always looking for passionate producers to feature on the show, whether you're just starting out or have years of experience your story matters. Head over to grazing grass. Dot com slash guest. To learn more and apply to be a guest. We'd love to share your journey with our growing community of grazers. Until next time. Keep on grazing grass.